Order of events for indoor vs outdoor track meets
02/19/2017 12:01:21 PM
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Curious if anyone can tell me why we put the 4 by 200 relay before the 1600 indoors when, during outdoor season, we put the 4 by 100 after the 1600. This really makes it tough on those kids doing the 1600 - 1000 double indoors. Very little time to recover. Why do we favor the sprinters, who shouldn't need the recovery time like distance runners do, in this way?
Curious if anyone can tell me why we put the 4 by 200 relay before the 1600 indoors when, during outdoor season, we put the 4 by 100 after the 1600. This really makes it tough on those kids doing the 1600 - 1000 double indoors. Very little time to recover. Why do we favor the sprinters, who shouldn't need the recovery time like distance runners do, in this way?
02/20/2017 11:02:37 AM
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As the parent of a distance runner I agree. My daughter had less than an hour this weekend at regionals between the 1600 and 3200 after her cool down, and warm up are thrown in there. I feel like those 2 races should be the furthest apart.
As the parent of a distance runner I agree. My daughter had less than an hour this weekend at regionals between the 1600 and 3200 after her cool down, and warm up are thrown in there. I feel like those 2 races should be the furthest apart.
05/16/2017 2:44:41 PM
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Saw this the other day so I will provide what I think is the answer. The normal order of events when there is a 4x200 and a 4x100 in a meet is 4x200, 1600, 4x100. So when the 4x200 is not run 4x100 follows the 1600. If 4x100 is not run 4x200 preceeds 1600. One is not a substitute for the other. Each has it's own position in the order of events.
Saw this the other day so I will provide what I think is the answer. The normal order of events when there is a 4x200 and a 4x100 in a meet is 4x200, 1600, 4x100. So when the 4x200 is not run 4x100 follows the 1600. If 4x100 is not run 4x200 preceeds 1600. One is not a substitute for the other. Each has it's own position in the order of events.
05/23/2017 8:21:26 AM
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I have thought about the order of events a lot, and I think the traditional order probably evolved more randomly than logically. Events were probably moved in and moved out over the years and we got something that's probably not as perfect as we might want. The thing is, it's hard to get an order of events that makes sense in all situations. A two day meet can obviously space events differently. Meets with preliminaries in some events need to do things a little differently. I also feel like the 2-mile needs to be run in the coolest part of the day. So if its a morning meet, I'd run it first. If it's an evening meet, I'd leave it near the end. However, if you try to sit down and make a logical order, its hard. You always end up with some events close together that could often feature the same athlete. The best thing to do is to try and keep the longer events as far away from one another as possible (though this makes for a long meet for distance kids). I like this order a little better than what we do now, but I still see plenty wrong with it. Reversing it probably would be fine also. 1600 100/110 hurdles 4 x 400 4 x 100 4 x 800 400 100 800 300 hurdles 200 3200 I like the idea of running through all the relays at once. It forces you to be 12 deep (or have some kids that recover REAL fast). Of course this doesn't finish the meet off with an exciting relay, instead it finishes it off with an event that is really not a crowd favorite. However, every time you move an event, you see another set of problems you create, so I don't know. It's just fun to think about how it might be arranged. Of course, you don't HAVE to run the events in order when you host a meet. You can host a meet and change it up however you want. It might be fun if a few meets experimented with different orders of events each year.
I have thought about the order of events a lot, and I think the traditional order probably evolved more randomly than logically. Events were probably moved in and moved out over the years and we got something that's probably not as perfect as we might want.

The thing is, it's hard to get an order of events that makes sense in all situations.

A two day meet can obviously space events differently. Meets with preliminaries in some events need to do things a little differently.

I also feel like the 2-mile needs to be run in the coolest part of the day. So if its a morning meet, I'd run it first. If it's an evening meet, I'd leave it near the end.

However, if you try to sit down and make a logical order, its hard. You always end up with some events close together that could often feature the same athlete. The best thing to do is to try and keep the longer events as far away from one another as possible (though this makes for a long meet for distance kids). I like this order a little better than what we do now, but I still see plenty wrong with it. Reversing it probably would be fine also.

1600
100/110 hurdles
4 x 400
4 x 100
4 x 800
400
100
800
300 hurdles
200
3200

I like the idea of running through all the relays at once. It forces you to be 12 deep (or have some kids that recover REAL fast).

Of course this doesn't finish the meet off with an exciting relay, instead it finishes it off with an event that is really not a crowd favorite.

However, every time you move an event, you see another set of problems you create, so I don't know. It's just fun to think about how it might be arranged.

Of course, you don't HAVE to run the events in order when you host a meet. You can host a meet and change it up however you want. It might be fun if a few meets experimented with different orders of events each year.
05/23/2017 10:58:12 AM
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The idea that sprinters don't need the recovery time is quite an ignorant one. To the example given that your daughter only had an hour between the 1600 and the 3200 after her cool down: try competing in the hurdles, high jump, and triple jump all simultaneously and then having to be ready to turn around and be ready for the 4x100 with only about a 15-20 minute break. If meet schedules and competition rules are unfair to anyone, it's sprinters.
The idea that sprinters don't need the recovery time is quite an ignorant one. To the example given that your daughter only had an hour between the 1600 and the 3200 after her cool down: try competing in the hurdles, high jump, and triple jump all simultaneously and then having to be ready to turn around and be ready for the 4x100 with only about a 15-20 minute break. If meet schedules and competition rules are unfair to anyone, it's sprinters.
05/24/2017 7:21:43 AM
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I think the outdoor schedule is about as fair to all as it can be. Fallenhurdler, I don't think anyone is saying that sprinters don't need recovery time, but I have to respectfully disagree with your point implying they need as much or more than distance runners. There is a big difference having to come back after running a 100 and a few long jump approaches compared to running a mile, especially in the heat. Now again, I think the outdoor schedule is fine, my initial point in this thread was that, since there is no 4 by 100 or 300 hurdles during the indoor season, how about moving the 4 by 200 to the place where the 4 by 100 is during outdoor, directly after the mile. Not having the 4 by 100 and 300 hurdles means the milers have only 1 event, the 500, between the mile and 1000. That is a brutal double!
I think the outdoor schedule is about as fair to all as it can be. Fallenhurdler, I don't think anyone is saying that sprinters don't need recovery time, but I have to respectfully disagree with your point implying they need as much or more than distance runners. There is a big difference having to come back after running a 100 and a few long jump approaches compared to running a mile, especially in the heat. Now again, I think the outdoor schedule is fine, my initial point in this thread was that, since there is no 4 by 100 or 300 hurdles during the indoor season, how about moving the 4 by 200 to the place where the 4 by 100 is during outdoor, directly after the mile. Not having the 4 by 100 and 300 hurdles means the milers have only 1 event, the 500, between the mile and 1000. That is a brutal double!
05/26/2017 2:52:51 PM
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@FallenHurdler no one said that sprinters don't need recovery time. But it's obvious that you need a longer recovery time after running two-miles than after running 100 yards. I know that from coaching football kids needed about 3 plays after running 100 yards carrying a football and wearing pads.
@FallenHurdler

no one said that sprinters don't need recovery time. But it's obvious that you need a longer recovery time after running two-miles than after running 100 yards. I know that from coaching football kids needed about 3 plays after running 100 yards carrying a football and wearing pads.
05/27/2017 12:05:43 PM
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@mattymath the first post in this thread literally says that sprinters don't need the recovery time they get. Sprinting/ jumping events are SIGNIFICANTLY more abusive to the nervous system than the distance events. That is just biology. I feel for kids that do the 1600/1000 double indoors and the 1600/800 double outdoors, but consider that the kids in the 300/500 and 400/200 are essentially in the same boat AND they likely run the 4x4 at the end. In the end 1 day and even 2 day meets for 17 events are unfair at some level.
@mattymath the first post in this thread literally says that sprinters don't need the recovery time they get. Sprinting/ jumping events are SIGNIFICANTLY more abusive to the nervous system than the distance events. That is just biology. I feel for kids that do the 1600/1000 double indoors and the 1600/800 double outdoors, but consider that the kids in the 300/500 and 400/200 are essentially in the same boat AND they likely run the 4x4 at the end. In the end 1 day and even 2 day meets for 17 events are unfair at some level.
05/28/2017 6:56:15 AM
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All the man wanted to know is why we don't put the 4 x 200 in the same place in an indoor meet as the 4 x 100 in an outdoor meet. I think he'd just like to get some sports drink in his daughter and 30 minutes of rest, because she does what distance coaches tell the kids to do. Warm up, race, cool down. The cool down takes quite a while in itself. The first answer given made perfect sense. I just mused that it would be interesting to see what happened if meets played around with changing the order of events. Suddenly sprinters and jumpers are getting nerve damage and 55 meter runners need as much recovery time as elite two milers (and his daughter is elite). I wasn't aware of all that, so by all means, leave the order the way it is. The two-milers are tough, they've got it! Heck, most of them are mad they can't run 3 events in Virginia.
All the man wanted to know is why we don't put the 4 x 200 in the same place in an indoor meet as the 4 x 100 in an outdoor meet. I think he'd just like to get some sports drink in his daughter and 30 minutes of rest, because she does what distance coaches tell the kids to do. Warm up, race, cool down. The cool down takes quite a while in itself.

The first answer given made perfect sense.

I just mused that it would be interesting to see what happened if meets played around with changing the order of events.

Suddenly sprinters and jumpers are getting nerve damage and 55 meter runners need as much recovery time as elite two milers (and his daughter is elite). I wasn't aware of all that, so by all means, leave the order the way it is. The two-milers are tough, they've got it! Heck, most of them are mad they can't run 3 events in Virginia.
05/28/2017 7:07:50 PM
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Thank you Mattymath! RamWebb, I did not say sprinters do not need recovery time, please read my post again. I said they do not need the recovery time that distance runners need! I have no idea what you mean by "abuse to the nervous system", but having coached both sprinters and distance runners over 25 years, I am 100% confident in saying distance runners NEED MORE TIME! All I asked for, as Mattymath pointed out, was that the indoor schedule be changed so that the 4 by 200 be held after the mile. How can you possibly expect kids to run the 1600 then have only one event, the 500, before they have to run the 1000. I am sorry but I see nothing even remotely close to this being asked of sprinter/jumpers!
Thank you Mattymath! RamWebb, I did not say sprinters do not need recovery time, please read my post again. I said they do not need the recovery time that distance runners need! I have no idea what you mean by "abuse to the nervous system", but having coached both sprinters and distance runners over 25 years, I am 100% confident in saying distance runners NEED MORE TIME! All I asked for, as Mattymath pointed out, was that the indoor schedule be changed so that the 4 by 200 be held after the mile. How can you possibly expect kids to run the 1600 then have only one event, the 500, before they have to run the 1000. I am sorry but I see nothing even remotely close to this being asked of sprinter/jumpers!
05/28/2017 9:39:50 PM
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I certainly understand where you're coming from, as someone who has coached distance for over 22 years, as well. We want our kids to get the most rest possible too. That being said, if the 4x200m relay was put right before the 500, it would make it virtually impossible for athletes to do the 4x2 and 500. As it is now, it is a virtual trade off between distance and sprint/mid-distance events, so that everyone is getting some rest, even if it is not as much as you might like.
I certainly understand where you're coming from, as someone who has coached distance for over 22 years, as well. We want our kids to get the most rest possible too. That being said, if the 4x200m relay was put right before the 500, it would make it virtually impossible for athletes to do the 4x2 and 500. As it is now, it is a virtual trade off between distance and sprint/mid-distance events, so that everyone is getting some rest, even if it is not as much as you might like.
05/29/2017 9:10:38 AM
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If the sprinter/jumpers do need as much recovery time as distance runners (which I will never agree with) than my idea to move the 4 by 200 after the 1600 is even better! This would give the kids who have just run the 55 hurdles and/or 55 dash time to rest before the 4 by 200, which they probably run! It would also give them a break to get a few more jumps in (long or high)! I don't see how you can possibly disagree with this point. I understand this may make it tough on a kid running the 4 by 200 and the 500, but are there really many kids that do that double. I have to believe most of your 4 by 200 athletes are running the 55 , 300, and maybe the 4 by 400. The outdoor schedule does it this way, I just don't see why we can't do the same indoors!
If the sprinter/jumpers do need as much recovery time as distance runners (which I will never agree with) than my idea to move the 4 by 200 after the 1600 is even better! This would give the kids who have just run the 55 hurdles and/or 55 dash time to rest before the 4 by 200, which they probably run! It would also give them a break to get a few more jumps in (long or high)! I don't see how you can possibly disagree with this point. I understand this may make it tough on a kid running the 4 by 200 and the 500, but are there really many kids that do that double. I have to believe most of your 4 by 200 athletes are running the 55 , 300, and maybe the 4 by 400. The outdoor schedule does it this way, I just don't see why we can't do the same indoors!
05/29/2017 12:09:48 PM
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I would say that your best 500m runners are more than capable of running a 4x200m well....I know that our team has used this overlap plenty of times to great success indoors. Also, look at it this way....having the 4x200m relay before the 1600m (on a one day meet), buys the 1600m runner that much more time to rest if he/she has done the 4x800m at the beginning of the meet. Again, no perfect system, but that's why you way the demands of the schedule versus the capabilities of your athletes.
I would say that your best 500m runners are more than capable of running a 4x200m well....I know that our team has used this overlap plenty of times to great success indoors.

Also, look at it this way....having the 4x200m relay before the 1600m (on a one day meet), buys the 1600m runner that much more time to rest if he/she has done the 4x800m at the beginning of the meet.

Again, no perfect system, but that's why you way the demands of the schedule versus the capabilities of your athletes.
05/29/2017 4:44:10 PM
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The fact that a number of you are saying you have no idea what is meant by bringing the nervous system into the conversation really discredits your opinions.
The fact that a number of you are saying you have no idea what is meant by bringing the nervous system into the conversation really discredits your opinions.
05/29/2017 6:36:31 PM
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@cawitt I can go into as much scientifically proven detail about how sprinting at 100% of maximum velocity fries the nervous system, but as you've already said, you'll never agree with me. I sympathize with the distance runners, especially as it gets hotter in the last month of the outdoor season. What we are all talking about is the amount of time needed for an athlete to be able to come back and perform at a level expected of them. While it is very true that you normally don't see 100m runners laying on the ground after a fast race like you would see in the 1600m, that does not mean that there aren't biological factors at play that would prohibit the 100m runner from performing at an equally competitive level just a few minutes later. I am not unaware of the recovery needs of distance runners having been one in my competitive days and currently coaching many of them. The bottom line is that we are trying to compare recovery times for two very different energy systems that recover in very different ways. Finally, even though I am pretty sure that who ever posted it was trying to be funny, understand that fatiguing the central nervous system DOES NOT MEAN that sprinters are getting nerve damage by sprinting. That's all from me. I wish your daughter (and your other athletes) luck in the state meet this weekend. Looks like storms around Harrisonburg both days.
@cawitt I can go into as much scientifically proven detail about how sprinting at 100% of maximum velocity fries the nervous system, but as you've already said, you'll never agree with me. I sympathize with the distance runners, especially as it gets hotter in the last month of the outdoor season. What we are all talking about is the amount of time needed for an athlete to be able to come back and perform at a level expected of them. While it is very true that you normally don't see 100m runners laying on the ground after a fast race like you would see in the 1600m, that does not mean that there aren't biological factors at play that would prohibit the 100m runner from performing at an equally competitive level just a few minutes later. I am not unaware of the recovery needs of distance runners having been one in my competitive days and currently coaching many of them. The bottom line is that we are trying to compare recovery times for two very different energy systems that recover in very different ways. Finally, even though I am pretty sure that who ever posted it was trying to be funny, understand that fatiguing the central nervous system DOES NOT MEAN that sprinters are getting nerve damage by sprinting.

That's all from me. I wish your daughter (and your other athletes) luck in the state meet this weekend. Looks like storms around Harrisonburg both days.
05/29/2017 8:55:02 PM
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RamWebb, I appreciate your response and concerns for sprinters as well as your best wishes for my daughter, but I think my original point of this thread has been lost in the translation. I never intended to imply that sprinters do not need recovery time and I do agree that running a 100 and taking several jumps can take its toll on the body. However, my intent was to discuss the indoor schedule and why we place the 4 by 200 before the mile, nothing more than that. I have no problem with the outdoor order of events and its fairness to the athletes. I would still like to know whether other coaches agree or disagree with me when I say the 4 by 200 should be placed after the mile just like the 4 by 100 is during the outdoor season. This would aid both the sprinters who are coming off the 55 meter dash (and possible the 55 hurdles) and taking some jumps AND the milers who need more time between the 1600 and the 1000. That is the only question I wanted answered by my post, nothing more, nothing less.
RamWebb, I appreciate your response and concerns for sprinters as well as your best wishes for my daughter, but I think my original point of this thread has been lost in the translation. I never intended to imply that sprinters do not need recovery time and I do agree that running a 100 and taking several jumps can take its toll on the body. However, my intent was to discuss the indoor schedule and why we place the 4 by 200 before the mile, nothing more than that. I have no problem with the outdoor order of events and its fairness to the athletes. I would still like to know whether other coaches agree or disagree with me when I say the 4 by 200 should be placed after the mile just like the 4 by 100 is during the outdoor season. This would aid both the sprinters who are coming off the 55 meter dash (and possible the 55 hurdles) and taking some jumps AND the milers who need more time between the 1600 and the 1000. That is the only question I wanted answered by my post, nothing more, nothing less.
06/01/2017 4:33:54 AM
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The fact is that many kids can run any events you choose for them. However, my idea has always been that you try to keep events that are only 1 distance apart as far away from one another as possible in the schedule since that is the MOST LIKELY events for kids to double up in. So I'd try to keep 55 and 4 x 200 as far apart as possible. 4 x 200 and 300 as far apart as possible. 300 and 4 x 400 as far apart as possible. 4 x 400 and 500 as far apart as possible. 500 and 4 x 800 as far apart as possible. 4 x 800 and 1000 as far apart as possible. 1000 and 1600 as far apart as possible. 1600 and 3200 as far apart as possible. You'd also probably like to keep events that are (once removed from one another in terms of distance as far apart as possible on the schedule). I personally always thought it was strange that 55 and 55 hurdles were right next to each other, but I've never heard anyone complain about that, so I suppose its not an issue. Now, there's always going to be some kid or another who would like to do some rare combo events like the 300 and 3200 for whom this won't work out. Eventually you put so many rules for which events can go where that it becomes mathematically impossible to satisfy all the rules. That's why I think it is fun when a meet goes away from the regular order once in a while. It gives kids a chance to maybe combine events they usually wouldn't. It also probably makes the coaches think a little outside the box when scheduling kids into events. One way I've thought of doing this before is to look at a single elimination bracket and think of the events distances as seeds. However this doesn't quite workout because you always have these 8 vs. 9 games in a tournament. In indoor track we have 10 running/hurdle events, in out door we have 11. So mathematically the questuib is, "How do arrange the numbers 1 through 11 so that the difference between nearby numbers is as great as possible?" I teach Statistics, so this might be a neat little problem for me to assign my students after the AP test is over next year?
The fact is that many kids can run any events you choose for them.

However, my idea has always been that you try to keep events that are only 1 distance apart as far away from one another as possible in the schedule since that is the MOST LIKELY events for kids to double up in.

So I'd try to keep 55 and 4 x 200 as far apart as possible.
4 x 200 and 300 as far apart as possible.
300 and 4 x 400 as far apart as possible.
4 x 400 and 500 as far apart as possible.
500 and 4 x 800 as far apart as possible.
4 x 800 and 1000 as far apart as possible.
1000 and 1600 as far apart as possible.
1600 and 3200 as far apart as possible.

You'd also probably like to keep events that are (once removed from one another in terms of distance as far apart as possible on the schedule).

I personally always thought it was strange that 55 and 55 hurdles were right next to each other, but I've never heard anyone complain about that, so I suppose its not an issue.

Now, there's always going to be some kid or another who would like to do some rare combo events like the 300 and 3200 for whom this won't work out.
Eventually you put so many rules for which events can go where that it becomes mathematically impossible to satisfy all the rules.

That's why I think it is fun when a meet goes away from the regular order once in a while. It gives kids a chance to maybe combine events they usually wouldn't. It also probably makes the coaches think a little outside the box when scheduling kids into events.

One way I've thought of doing this before is to look at a single elimination bracket and think of the events distances as seeds. However this doesn't quite workout because you always have these 8 vs. 9 games in a tournament. In indoor track we have 10 running/hurdle events, in out door we have 11.

So mathematically the questuib is, "How do arrange the numbers 1 through 11 so that the difference between nearby numbers is as great as possible?"

I teach Statistics, so this might be a neat little problem for me to assign my students after the AP test is over next year?

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