Validity of 400 meter dash National Class Records brought into question: AGE ADVANTAGE not addressed
03/05/2017 6:58:18 PM
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Under every single USATF, NFHS, and any other applicable rules he is completely allowed to compete at his age. After all, this is STUDENT-ATHLETICS! They are a student first and thus their grade corresponds to their grade. Let's just be 100% upfront about it, you can complain about the class records but that dude is going to hold every single overall national record either way so its a moot point. Same argument kept peeping up with Weini Kelati. Different situations make learning a lot harder and just because someone is behind in school does not mean they should be treated differently or penalized. He would beat any of those guys in a race and records are truly meant to be broken. That is why after the national overall record the best thing to look at is World Junior Records (based solely on age) and records by every age. Check those out because it is great to see the young talent you never hear about overseas. -Nolan
Under every single USATF, NFHS, and any other applicable rules he is completely allowed to compete at his age.

After all, this is STUDENT-ATHLETICS! They are a student first and thus their grade corresponds to their grade.

Let's just be 100% upfront about it, you can complain about the class records but that dude is going to hold every single overall national record either way so its a moot point.

Same argument kept peeping up with Weini Kelati. Different situations make learning a lot harder and just because someone is behind in school does not mean they should be treated differently or penalized. He would beat any of those guys in a race and records are truly meant to be broken.

That is why after the national overall record the best thing to look at is World Junior Records (based solely on age) and records by every age. Check those out because it is great to see the young talent you never hear about overseas.

-Nolan
03/06/2017 1:13:07 PM
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They make age records and grade records for a reason. You want to make it seem like there is something wrong or someone is trying to take advantage of the rule. There are many kids who end up a year ahead of their peers. The vast majority are not being held back for that reason and most definitely not for Track. In a state where you must be 5 by September 1st to start Kindergarten, many kids will cannot enter with their actual group. Different states have different requirements. My nephew is a year older than almost everyone that he will be in school with because he is in Florida. I contest your main premise on age being such a deciding factor especially for elite athletes within a year of each other. Athletes are elite for many reasons but in the end their achievements will stand up against other Elites. How many college senior milers did Drew Hunter perform better than when he broke the 4 minute mile in high school. (Probably 95% even though they had a huge age and experience advantage. My experience in coaching multiple sports has been that the only real age that matters is when the kid went through puberty and what really determines achievement is experience and coaching. Everyone knows the rules going in, so I have no problem with the rule. I'm not one who cares much about records. Unless it comes with an Olympic Gold medal, World Championship, NCAA Championship, it really doesn't mean all that much.
They make age records and grade records for a reason.

You want to make it seem like there is something wrong or someone is trying to take advantage of the rule. There are many kids who end up a year ahead of their peers. The vast majority are not being held back for that reason and most definitely not for Track. In a state where you must be 5 by September 1st to start Kindergarten, many kids will cannot enter with their actual group. Different states have different requirements. My nephew is a year older than almost everyone that he will be in school with because he is in Florida.

I contest your main premise on age being such a deciding factor especially for elite athletes within a year of each other. Athletes are elite for many reasons but in the end their achievements will stand up against other Elites. How many college senior milers did Drew Hunter perform better than when he broke the 4 minute mile in high school. (Probably 95% even though they had a huge age and experience advantage. My experience in coaching multiple sports has been that the only real age that matters is when the kid went through puberty and what really determines achievement is experience and coaching.

Everyone knows the rules going in, so I have no problem with the rule.

I'm not one who cares much about records. Unless it comes with an Olympic Gold medal, World Championship, NCAA Championship, it really doesn't mean all that much.
03/06/2017 3:07:47 PM
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I should also say that despite me thinking that Cooper will take down all the national records, I do believe that Obea Moore is actually the greatest quarter miler all-time. Interesting video about him --> http://www.flotrack.org/article/38637-4-flofilm-of-2015#.WL3BWxRSTzI
I should also say that despite me thinking that Cooper will take down all the national records, I do believe that Obea Moore is actually the greatest quarter miler all-time.

Interesting video about him http://www.flotrack.org/article/38637-4-flofilm-of-2015#.WL3BWxRSTzI
03/07/2017 10:20:07 PM
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High school records are not "age group records". They are class records. Period.
High school records are not "age group records". They are class records. Period.
03/12/2017 8:57:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
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best of luck Wendy. Keep other kids out of this. You don't know them and they have nothing to do with you. Since you've edited every single message you have posted after it is responded to, I think you should go back and edit out anyone not involved in your crusade.
best of luck Wendy. Keep other kids out of this. You don't know them and they have nothing to do with you. Since you've edited every single message you have posted after it is responded to, I think you should go back and edit out anyone not involved in your crusade.
03/15/2017 10:29:04 AM
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Joined: Nov 2014
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Honest question here. Why are you only concerned about the boys 400 meters? Do you have a son or an athlete that is getting screwed out of a record? What about other events? I can tell you that my daughters birthday is 09/16....some people would start their child in school before their 5th birthday. My daughter will start the next year, it isn't because I think she will be a stud athlete in 10 years, it is because she won't be mature enough to start school. I have a similar birthday, my parents started me before I turned 5 and two years later I was held back a year. Grade records are grade records.....
Honest question here.

Why are you only concerned about the boys 400 meters? Do you have a son or an athlete that is getting screwed out of a record?

What about other events?

I can tell you that my daughters birthday is 09/16....some people would start their child in school before their 5th birthday. My daughter will start the next year, it isn't because I think she will be a stud athlete in 10 years, it is because she won't be mature enough to start school. I have a similar birthday, my parents started me before I turned 5 and two years later I was held back a year.

Grade records are grade records.....
03/15/2017 5:43:14 PM
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@WendyArd so where should my son end up as he started 9th grade at the age of 13 and competed in the state xc meet at that same age. He recently completed his 4th state meet and was only 16, should he get records for 2 grade levels lower. I say no- his preparation matched that of his team mates and although we tracked where he was compared to his grade level competition, the truth is he competed against everyone. If the kid is fast he is fast, his preparation would be comparable to the others at that grade. That is to say if he were in 8th grade he didn't start training like a ninth grader till the following year and as there may be a difference in strength due to age, he had to potentiate it. As a sophamore he will have 2 years of that level training, as a junior 3, that is where the comparison comes from. As a senior he probably wont have a record because he may end up too old to compete per VHSL rules. Then where does that leave us
@WendyArd so where should my son end up as he started 9th grade at the age of 13 and competed in the state xc meet at that same age. He recently completed his 4th state meet and was only 16, should he get records for 2 grade levels lower. I say no- his preparation matched that of his team mates and although we tracked where he was compared to his grade level competition, the truth is he competed against everyone. If the kid is fast he is fast, his preparation would be comparable to the others at that grade. That is to say if he were in 8th grade he didn't start training like a ninth grader till the following year and as there may be a difference in strength due to age, he had to potentiate it. As a sophamore he will have 2 years of that level training, as a junior 3, that is where the comparison comes from. As a senior he probably wont have a record because he may end up too old to compete per VHSL rules. Then where does that leave us
03/15/2017 8:02:42 PM
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You keep referencing Obea Moore and William Reed....two guys who had ZERO career after high school. I don't think they give a flying you know what about high school records. What we need to do is mentor our student-athletes so when they do get to the next level they don't pull an Obea Moore or a William Reed. Not worry about if a freshman is 14 or 15 and if he qualifies for a freshman record....of which that kid's parents or coach care more about than the athlete. I have never heard a kid walking around saying, "Yo dawg, I'm going after the 10th grade record in the 400 this weekend". I think there are way bigger things we as coaches need to be worrying about......but this seems to be your mission in life, have at it....nothing is going to change.
You keep referencing Obea Moore and William Reed....two guys who had ZERO career after high school. I don't think they give a flying you know what about high school records.

What we need to do is mentor our student-athletes so when they do get to the next level they don't pull an Obea Moore or a William Reed. Not worry about if a freshman is 14 or 15 and if he qualifies for a freshman record....of which that kid's parents or coach care more about than the athlete. I have never heard a kid walking around saying, "Yo dawg, I'm going after the 10th grade record in the 400 this weekend".

I think there are way bigger things we as coaches need to be worrying about......but this seems to be your mission in life, have at it....nothing is going to change.
03/15/2017 10:06:56 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 109
It seems pretty obvious no one in this group agrees with your reasoning on this issue. It seems like there are a lot more things out there to crusade against than this issue. Life isn't fair for everyone. There are different records out there for different activities. How many times does a kid turn in a performance Tuesday that would have been an age group record if he would have turned that same performance in on Monday. You are basically talking about a year gap, why should kids who just turned 14 be compared to kids who are a few days away from turning 15.
It seems pretty obvious no one in this group agrees with your reasoning on this issue. It seems like there are a lot more things out there to crusade against than this issue.

Life isn't fair for everyone. There are different records out there for different activities. How many times does a kid turn in a performance Tuesday that would have been an age group record if he would have turned that same performance in on Monday. You are basically talking about a year gap, why should kids who just turned 14 be compared to kids who are a few days away from turning 15.
03/15/2017 11:14:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2014
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@WendyArd I understand where you are coming from...but your line of thinking is not the way things are done. The system has worked for years and years and years..... If it isn't about a particular athlete, then why do you keep referencing Obea Moore? Nothing is going to change....if the IAAF never got rid of the East German's who set world records back in the 70's, the National Federation is not going to adopt your hair brained ideas.
@WendyArd I understand where you are coming from...but your line of thinking is not the way things are done. The system has worked for years and years and years.....

If it isn't about a particular athlete, then why do you keep referencing Obea Moore?

Nothing is going to change....if the IAAF never got rid of the East German's who set world records back in the 70's, the National Federation is not going to adopt your hair brained ideas.
03/16/2017 5:47:34 AM
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@WendyArd You are crazy and if you are a coach, i feel sorry for your athletes.
@WendyArd You are crazy and if you are a coach, i feel sorry for your athletes.
03/16/2017 9:32:10 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 136
Your battle is going to be an uphill one because age group records already exist and because "class" is a year in school, not an age. They are two separate concepts and two separate groups of records. As far as class records combined with ages goes, the NFHS states that any athlete over the age of 19 on September 1 is ineligible for high school sports. This means it is possible to have freshmen who are up to 15 years 364 days entering their freshman year. That makes Cooper well within the rules- you just happen to think the rules are unfair. What would be equally unfair is for someone like Cooper to go through high school and never be eligible for any class records, which is what you propose, unless you think he's currently eligible for junior class records even though he's only a sophomore (which is even more confusing). Unfortunately for you, there's no perfect solution. Because of track being a seasonal sport, kids will always have advantages and disadvantages by at least 6+ months regardless of if you look at ages, classes, or a combination of the two.
Your battle is going to be an uphill one because age group records already exist and because "class" is a year in school, not an age. They are two separate concepts and two separate groups of records.

As far as class records combined with ages goes, the NFHS states that any athlete over the age of 19 on September 1 is ineligible for high school sports. This means it is possible to have freshmen who are up to 15 years 364 days entering their freshman year. That makes Cooper well within the rules- you just happen to think the rules are unfair. What would be equally unfair is for someone like Cooper to go through high school and never be eligible for any class records, which is what you propose, unless you think he's currently eligible for junior class records even though he's only a sophomore (which is even more confusing).

Unfortunately for you, there's no perfect solution. Because of track being a seasonal sport, kids will always have advantages and disadvantages by at least 6+ months regardless of if you look at ages, classes, or a combination of the two.
03/16/2017 7:23:49 PM
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@kshirk I sure hope these 2 men have moved on. I imagine they are like most athletes, the people around them find their accomplishments more astonishing than they do. After all they did it, I don't know the 2 in question but I'm sure their times improved over what happened in high school. And if their records were the biggest thing they accomplished, then shame on our system for in let them down. Athletics provides for accomplishment, growth, and in many cases access to a better education. I hope that this kid not only gets the records, but by being held back he is also provided a better chance to succeed and is able to take advantage of it.
@kshirk I sure hope these 2 men have moved on. I imagine they are like most athletes, the people around them find their accomplishments more astonishing than they do. After all they did it, I don't know the 2 in question but I'm sure their times improved over what happened in high school. And if their records were the biggest thing they accomplished, then shame on our system for in let them down. Athletics provides for accomplishment, growth, and in many cases access to a better education. I hope that this kid not only gets the records, but by being held back he is also provided a better chance to succeed and is able to take advantage of it.
03/17/2017 8:21:13 AM
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[quote=dscherre]@kshirk I sure hope these 2 men have moved on. I imagine they are like most athletes, the people around them find their accomplishments more astonishing than they do. After all they did it, I don't know the 2 in question but I'm sure their times improved over what happened in high school. [/quote] @dscherre Unfortunately, neither runner improved after high school.
dscherre wrote:
@kshirk I sure hope these 2 men have moved on. I imagine they are like most athletes, the people around them find their accomplishments more astonishing than they do. After all they did it, I don't know the 2 in question but I'm sure their times improved over what happened in high school.


@dscherre

Unfortunately, neither runner improved after high school.
03/26/2017 10:34:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 155
Man....I thought we got rid of you. Thought someone would have pulled you off to the side and told you that you are crazy.
Man....I thought we got rid of you. Thought someone would have pulled you off to the side and told you that you are crazy.

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